market forces create needs for immigration and expansion (or the flip side when negatively inclined). Market forces do not create illegal immigrants. Those unwilling to obey laws and think they are entitled or that “everyone else is doing it” then break the laws and become illegals and/or promote illegal immigration. Blaming businesses and consumers are only part of the problem. Blame belongs to weak politicians that will not make a stand and make enforcement possible.

Tax cuts from the Guberment, have actually produced better statistics than the periods immediately preceeding those cuts. Blaming Bush for lowering taxes to create illegal immigration is illogical and emotionally based spin. Nor does saying that it was for the “rich” only amount to anything substantial. In this last case, taxes goes down, guberment revenues go up… from more spending and capital expansions… then this filters economy wide. Do folks still fail or hit upon hard times? The answer is: Yes, they do. However, blaming tax cuts from another party is not the answer, especially when they have resulted in a stronger economy and higher revenues in the guberment coffers.

On war on drugs: decrimilizing drugs will not solve that situation either. That results in a validation of a person’s weakness of character by seeking refuge from personal accountability by hiding in drug-induced fantasy.

On social security: this bankrupting started long before Bush or Clinton came into power. It will become bankrupt unless practices and entitlements change. No amount of immigrants can solve this cash flow problem (unless we are over-run, but then at some point everyone in the world would have to pay into SS and then at some point we’d be inthe same jam… going bankrupt). Change the system and change the ideas of personal accountability for retirement years and that will solve the problem.

When attacking an opponent’s points or failing, know the history of your attacking counter-points as best you can. Blindly using such points will result in looking very silly.

Mister Ed
PS – von Zempter must not have caught my whole comment in regards to my ancestors.

So… Bush cuts taxes for rich guys 5 times since he’s been in office. We’re over 8 trillion dollars in debt and our misnamed Wars are being paid for by Mexico, China, Japan, and Korea. Because these countries own our ass, they’ll send all the illegal immigrants into the country that they want to, and we’ll continue to be ineffective in dealing with them because you don’t mess with the bankers, right?

And… as we approach our demographic transformation from a nation of mostly young and middle aged people to a nation of old folks, there’s this social security thingy going on. Not enough little worker bees are being born to support me until I’m 85 and the Bush administration has screwed the social security system into bankruptcy. BUT WAIT.. we can let illegal immigrants in and they will work under assumed names and IDs and never, ever be able to claim social security and they will contribute to our economy by keeping it moving. Oh darn those rotten little immigrants… how dare they pay rent, buy food, clothes, cars, while they are here. Let’s take and ship their rotten little selves back to whereever they came from.

This issue is so complex that any time I hear pre-digested crap being spun as talking points I want to hurl. Certainly there are concerns about illegal immigrants taking jobs here — I know of a tile contractor who is almost out of business because he can’t compete against people working cheaper and under the table. But then you have to ask, who’s hiring the illegals. They sure aren’t getting all the jobs. The illustrious government has made it incredibly attractive to ship thousands of jobs overseas. The companies that remain can’t compete internationally because they provide workers with decent wages and healthcare costs… and we all know how diligently congress is working on healthcare costs, don’t we. But, it is the fault of the illegal immigrants right? Only if you like Kool Aid.

It’s like the War on Drugs which supports the state of Florida. There will never be decriminalization of drugs because it provides too much income to the government. Situations like the current immigration crisis don’t arise in a vacuum.

Illegal immigrants wouldn’t be here if market forces didn’t create the need for them. The rest is just politicians playing with the simple minds of the gullible and uneducated. Follow the money, Grasshopper.

utahgirl

You forget that WE are the GOOD GUYS and the ones that we are fighting are the ENEMY (read BAD GUYS). Let’s us take care of the good guys (our soldiers, neighbors, and friends) by defeating the bad guys. If that means that the enemy has to be uncomfortable in order to gain the desire to surrender, so be it. The important thing is that WE WIN. We do that by being united, supporting our leaders, and doing all we can to force the ENEMY to surrender. To paraphrase General Patton — we don’t want to die for our country; we want the Enemy to die for their country. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT!!!!!

It saddens my heart to see people buy into this non-sense. People, when they come to our country, need to respect our borders and our rights as a nation to dictate who may enter and how they may enter, especially in these times of unrest where some people plain and simply want to destroy us. If they desire to enjoy our blessings, then they too can share with us, but only if they do it correctly. Conversely, our own citizens need to defend and maintain our integrity as a nation. Secureing our borders does jsusta and is not a crime against humanity by any means.

If you study what the term and intent of “With liberty and justice for all”, it is not meant as a blanket to protect those that do not want it nor for those that sneak in the back door just because the legal way is too hard for them. Nor does it apply to an unwelcoming world, or the portions thereof that detest it. Yes, we will hold higher ideals when dealing with these people, that is who we are, and it is our tradition to do so. The term meant is for those that come legally and responsibly, even if not a citizen. It is for those that revel in liberty and take responsibility to uphold justice and libery, no matter their standing or situation. It is not some utopian world-wide slogan to be passed around without merit or thought, nor with the intent to win a Miss World pagent. If access or citizenship becomes too easy and granted without enforcement, it will then become like the proverbial trophy given to every participant in a sport just because they showed up … unvalued, unchampioned, and a thing of naught; leaving us to hold the tattered remains of a once great blessing.

Images of distress in the media and emails can tug on the ol’ heart strings, but the question is: At what point do we abandon common sense and ration off another piece of our county or security just to appease the personal pain we felt from the story of someone that got caught after being here illegally? Or those that tried to kill us but are put in prison as consequence of their actions? Enforce our laws and make them better where you can Mr. Ashdown. Streamline the immigaration process where applicable. But please, do not listen to the fanciful whims of “men” that are ignorant and/or seek power for themselves, but instead, contemplate the just dealings of the truly noble. That will keep you true. But more importantly, that will keep my vote, now and in the future.

Mister Ed
PS – to the the other commentors: why all the confusion on torture, fences and treatment of detainees during times of war? Read the Geneva Convention for yourselves. If anything, we are setting the standard already by applying the Convention to those who violated it in the worst possible ways. No Golden Rule will ever equate to more civility towards us nor our combatants from unjust peoples (in this case, terrorists). The “Golden Rule” dreams are based upon fallacy, in these specific cases. Only strength will deter in the long run, if at all. If you doubt it, study history. Do not fear fences. It’s not a bad thing to enforce a border with a fence. Do you forget what The East Germans did to enforce their borders? They protected theirs with machine guns and mine fields that resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of deaths over the 5 decades it existed. Our fence is already more civilized, even before it has been built. If ever utopia is achieved, we can then tear the fences down. In the end, we can be strong, and yet at the same time, we can be charitable and ever so welcoming to those that would come to this country seeking refuge and liberty

That concern does not override how we treat the rest of the planet, nor does it need to. How we stand for our own ideals abroad is a big part of our security at home. If you believe the executive branch can be trusted not to take their newly bestowed powers and use them stateside, then you are far more trusting of government than I.

Oh, and one other thing….don’t you earn basic human rights just by being human? I don’t see an exception written out there.