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	<title>Comments on: No Warrant Needed</title>
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		<title>By: Utah Considers Warrantless Internet Subpoenas &#124; JetLib News</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41618</link>
		<dc:creator>Utah Considers Warrantless Internet Subpoenas &#124; JetLib News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41618</guid>
		<description>[...] seneces writes &#8220;The Utah State Legislature is considering a bill granting the Attorney General&#8217;s Office the ability to demand customer information from Internet or cell phone companies via an administrative subpoena, with no judicial review (text of the HB150). This represents an expansion of a law passed last year, which granted that ability when &#8216;it is suspected that a child-sex crime has been committed.&#8217; Since becoming law, last year&#8217;s bill has led to more than one non-judicial request per day for subscriber information. Pete Ashdown, owner of a local ISP and 2006 candidate for the US Senate, has discussed his position and the effects of this bill.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seneces writes &#8220;The Utah State Legislature is considering a bill granting the Attorney General&#8217;s Office the ability to demand customer information from Internet or cell phone companies via an administrative subpoena, with no judicial review (text of the HB150). This represents an expansion of a law passed last year, which granted that ability when &#8216;it is suspected that a child-sex crime has been committed.&#8217; Since becoming law, last year&#8217;s bill has led to more than one non-judicial request per day for subscriber information. Pete Ashdown, owner of a local ISP and 2006 candidate for the US Senate, has discussed his position and the effects of this bill.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tiani Coleman</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41597</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiani Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41597</guid>
		<description>Pete:
   
    Hope this isn&#039;t a dupe -- an earlier message didn&#039;t post.
   
    I&#039;m very glad to see you taking a strong stand on this.  I&#039;m a former chair of the Salt Lake County Republican Party, with a J.D. from Cornell.

    In 2008, after it had already been signed into law, I came across HB 493, which amended the stalking laws to include cyber-stalking, among other sweeping changes.  I was appalled at how overbroad and vague the law was -- especially considering that in Utah, you can get a civil stalking injunction ex parte, and then a violation of the injunction is a per se crime.  

    This is relevant in that (1) cyber-stalking is one of the misdemeanors Daw&#039;s law includes; and (2) both the stalking laws and now the administrative subpoena laws were requested by Shurtleff, likely in connection with the &quot;Rachel Guyon case&quot; (google it if you haven&#039;t already).  

     Another relevant case in all of this is Towner v. Ridgway.  Towner referred to HB 493 as the Ridgway law and claimed to have worked with lawmakers &quot;behind the scenes.&quot;  Please read the Utah Supreme Court opinion in this case; it will become clear that HB 493 made an already abused law a slam dunk in favor of suppression of political opponents.

     I sent a letter to legislators in 2008 asking them to repeal 493.  But a letter, without much more, didn&#039;t generate much response or action.  Now with HB 150, I&#039;d really like to take more action BEFORE it becomes law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete:</p>
<p>    Hope this isn&#8217;t a dupe &#8212; an earlier message didn&#8217;t post.</p>
<p>    I&#8217;m very glad to see you taking a strong stand on this.  I&#8217;m a former chair of the Salt Lake County Republican Party, with a J.D. from Cornell.</p>
<p>    In 2008, after it had already been signed into law, I came across HB 493, which amended the stalking laws to include cyber-stalking, among other sweeping changes.  I was appalled at how overbroad and vague the law was &#8212; especially considering that in Utah, you can get a civil stalking injunction ex parte, and then a violation of the injunction is a per se crime.  </p>
<p>    This is relevant in that (1) cyber-stalking is one of the misdemeanors Daw&#8217;s law includes; and (2) both the stalking laws and now the administrative subpoena laws were requested by Shurtleff, likely in connection with the &#8220;Rachel Guyon case&#8221; (google it if you haven&#8217;t already).  </p>
<p>     Another relevant case in all of this is Towner v. Ridgway.  Towner referred to HB 493 as the Ridgway law and claimed to have worked with lawmakers &#8220;behind the scenes.&#8221;  Please read the Utah Supreme Court opinion in this case; it will become clear that HB 493 made an already abused law a slam dunk in favor of suppression of political opponents.</p>
<p>     I sent a letter to legislators in 2008 asking them to repeal 493.  But a letter, without much more, didn&#8217;t generate much response or action.  Now with HB 150, I&#8217;d really like to take more action BEFORE it becomes law.</p>
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		<title>By: Lannea</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41595</link>
		<dc:creator>Lannea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41595</guid>
		<description>I left Utah and am happy to not deal with the Republican view on less government. It seems to only be less government when it affects the operation of the Government and not the right of the people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I left Utah and am happy to not deal with the Republican view on less government. It seems to only be less government when it affects the operation of the Government and not the right of the people.</p>
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		<title>By: freedomfighter</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41593</link>
		<dc:creator>freedomfighter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41593</guid>
		<description>This is to notify you that all of your  names, IP addresses, cell phone numbers, and bank information have been collected from this website and you will be contacted by the Utah Internet Police shortly!!!

There is a simple way to legally stop this kind of unconstitutional action:

Just use any free proxy IP server like these http://www.publicproxyservers.com/

The servers only stay online for a few hours and then disappear with no records existing.

The premise of the law is to stop child sex pornography but the open permission of the law would allow the state and feds to monitor and collect information from any &quot;subversive&quot; website including this one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is to notify you that all of your  names, IP addresses, cell phone numbers, and bank information have been collected from this website and you will be contacted by the Utah Internet Police shortly!!!</p>
<p>There is a simple way to legally stop this kind of unconstitutional action:</p>
<p>Just use any free proxy IP server like these <a href="http://www.publicproxyservers.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.publicproxyservers.com/</a></p>
<p>The servers only stay online for a few hours and then disappear with no records existing.</p>
<p>The premise of the law is to stop child sex pornography but the open permission of the law would allow the state and feds to monitor and collect information from any &#8220;subversive&#8221; website including this one!</p>
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		<title>By: Libertarian777</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41587</link>
		<dc:creator>Libertarian777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41587</guid>
		<description>the irony is that Bush set the prescedent with the Patriot Act, and Obama re-inforced with with the latest update to the FISA Act (FBI &#039;writs&#039; anyone?).

Bush also, ILLEGALLY, wrote into law that the telecoms companies who submitted data to the government without a warrant, not be held liable.  This is in contravention of the &#039;ex post facto&#039; provision in the constitution.

ALL legislatures seem to have missed the fact that the Constitution enumerates INALIENABLE rights. I.e. fundamental rights that belong to each individual and CANNOT be removed by State or Federal powers, no matter how many laws they wish to enact. Unfortunately silliness goes further in that the police and authorities will enforce an illegal law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the irony is that Bush set the prescedent with the Patriot Act, and Obama re-inforced with with the latest update to the FISA Act (FBI &#8216;writs&#8217; anyone?).</p>
<p>Bush also, ILLEGALLY, wrote into law that the telecoms companies who submitted data to the government without a warrant, not be held liable.  This is in contravention of the &#8216;ex post facto&#8217; provision in the constitution.</p>
<p>ALL legislatures seem to have missed the fact that the Constitution enumerates INALIENABLE rights. I.e. fundamental rights that belong to each individual and CANNOT be removed by State or Federal powers, no matter how many laws they wish to enact. Unfortunately silliness goes further in that the police and authorities will enforce an illegal law.</p>
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		<title>By: Wingus</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41586</link>
		<dc:creator>Wingus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41586</guid>
		<description>Pete, I understand what you&#039;re saying about the topic of the bill.

Your papers, including your email, are protected by the 4th amendment.  To get them definitely requires a search warrant.  The fact you received (or sent) an email is not protected; nor is the fact you received or sent a phone call / text message, nor are the billing records associated with a particular email address or phone number --- these can all be requested administratively, ie, with a subpoena, in every state of which I have knowledge.  Federal courts have also ruled affirmatively that this is the case.  In my home state of Massachusetts, where virtually everyone is a card-carrying ACLU member, this is settled case law.  I understand why this upsets people -- I&#039;m a privacy zealot myself -- but individuals&#039; complaints that it violates the 4th amendment is unlikely to stop your state&#039;s legislature, nor to convince a state or federal court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, I understand what you&#8217;re saying about the topic of the bill.</p>
<p>Your papers, including your email, are protected by the 4th amendment.  To get them definitely requires a search warrant.  The fact you received (or sent) an email is not protected; nor is the fact you received or sent a phone call / text message, nor are the billing records associated with a particular email address or phone number &#8212; these can all be requested administratively, ie, with a subpoena, in every state of which I have knowledge.  Federal courts have also ruled affirmatively that this is the case.  In my home state of Massachusetts, where virtually everyone is a card-carrying ACLU member, this is settled case law.  I understand why this upsets people &#8212; I&#8217;m a privacy zealot myself &#8212; but individuals&#8217; complaints that it violates the 4th amendment is unlikely to stop your state&#8217;s legislature, nor to convince a state or federal court.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Upton</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41585</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Upton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41585</guid>
		<description>Pete,

I wrote a letter to Mr. Daw with an appeal to his supposedly limited-government values.  I don&#039;t expect to change his position, but I do want to make he or his campaign folks consider the ramifications of his positions in public opinion.

I am effectively making this letter a public letter by pasting it here in the comments; I hope you don&#039;t mind me using your blog comments for such a soapbox.

Email letter text:
--- 


from	Sean Upton 
to	brad@braddaw.com
date	Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:19 AM
subject	Values of limited government
	
Mr. Daw,

If you have a chance, please take a look at the discussion happening here:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/24/025225/Utah-Considers-Warrantless-Internet-Subpoenas

I&#039;m very much for limited government, just like you -- but practically
applied, limited government and protection of private property means
that we need to respect the separation of powers and the Fourth
Amendment that puts reasonable power to solve law enforcement problems
with warrants issued by judges.

I&#039;m a native Utahn living in California at the moment, but moving back
to my home state in a few months.  I think that privacy, and the
respect of our founders&#039; boundaries of private property with the
careful use of warrants is a set of values that all Utahns can be
supportive of.

Net-savvy civil liberties should be nothing to be ashamed of on a
limited-government Conservative&#039;s resume.

I, like you, work in technology; I see freedoms (especially privacy)
as a cornerstone of economic growth.  China&#039;s problems with Google,
for example, show that there will be a ceiling to post-industrial
growth (stifling the creative class and entrepreneurial ambition) with
excess government intrusion into the privacy and expression happening
in seemingly non-economic cases.  I think we owe our citizens and the
world the best example for the world, setting ourselves apart in
public policy from the overarching tech-diminishing agendas of China
(or even Italy or Australia, also in the news for limiting Internet
liberties in economically problematic ways).

I hope you would reconsider aspects of your current position on this matter.

Thanks for your time.

Cheers,
Sean Upton</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>I wrote a letter to Mr. Daw with an appeal to his supposedly limited-government values.  I don&#8217;t expect to change his position, but I do want to make he or his campaign folks consider the ramifications of his positions in public opinion.</p>
<p>I am effectively making this letter a public letter by pasting it here in the comments; I hope you don&#8217;t mind me using your blog comments for such a soapbox.</p>
<p>Email letter text:<br />
&#8212; </p>
<p>from	Sean Upton<br />
to	<a href="mailto:brad@braddaw.com">brad@braddaw.com</a><br />
date	Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:19 AM<br />
subject	Values of limited government</p>
<p>Mr. Daw,</p>
<p>If you have a chance, please take a look at the discussion happening here:</p>
<p><a href="http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/24/025225/Utah-Considers-Warrantless-Internet-Subpoenas" rel="nofollow">http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/24/025225/Utah-Considers-Warrantless-Internet-Subpoenas</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m very much for limited government, just like you &#8212; but practically<br />
applied, limited government and protection of private property means<br />
that we need to respect the separation of powers and the Fourth<br />
Amendment that puts reasonable power to solve law enforcement problems<br />
with warrants issued by judges.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a native Utahn living in California at the moment, but moving back<br />
to my home state in a few months.  I think that privacy, and the<br />
respect of our founders&#8217; boundaries of private property with the<br />
careful use of warrants is a set of values that all Utahns can be<br />
supportive of.</p>
<p>Net-savvy civil liberties should be nothing to be ashamed of on a<br />
limited-government Conservative&#8217;s resume.</p>
<p>I, like you, work in technology; I see freedoms (especially privacy)<br />
as a cornerstone of economic growth.  China&#8217;s problems with Google,<br />
for example, show that there will be a ceiling to post-industrial<br />
growth (stifling the creative class and entrepreneurial ambition) with<br />
excess government intrusion into the privacy and expression happening<br />
in seemingly non-economic cases.  I think we owe our citizens and the<br />
world the best example for the world, setting ourselves apart in<br />
public policy from the overarching tech-diminishing agendas of China<br />
(or even Italy or Australia, also in the news for limiting Internet<br />
liberties in economically problematic ways).</p>
<p>I hope you would reconsider aspects of your current position on this matter.</p>
<p>Thanks for your time.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Sean Upton</p>
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		<title>By: Che</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41584</link>
		<dc:creator>Che</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41584</guid>
		<description>Voting has absolutely no effect. You are choosing from a pre-selected group of individuals, very few of whom will ever rock the boat, for fear of losing their corporate funding and support.

This should not be looked at as yet another blow to freedom as we think of it, rather it is another step down the slippery slope we have been on for some time.

Every day we lose a little more of our ability to fight back.  A violent global revolution is the only answer, but we the sheeple no longer have the balls to do it and the elites know this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Voting has absolutely no effect. You are choosing from a pre-selected group of individuals, very few of whom will ever rock the boat, for fear of losing their corporate funding and support.</p>
<p>This should not be looked at as yet another blow to freedom as we think of it, rather it is another step down the slippery slope we have been on for some time.</p>
<p>Every day we lose a little more of our ability to fight back.  A violent global revolution is the only answer, but we the sheeple no longer have the balls to do it and the elites know this.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Ashdown&#8217;s Journal &#187; Legislature Flyer Against HB150</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41583</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Ashdown&#8217;s Journal &#187; Legislature Flyer Against HB150</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41583</guid>
		<description>[...] Brian King, the sole committee vote against HB150 asked me to bullet point the problems with HB150 so he could distribute it in the legislature. This [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Brian King, the sole committee vote against HB150 asked me to bullet point the problems with HB150 so he could distribute it in the legislature. This [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Selleg</title>
		<link>http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/02/23/no-warrant-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-41582</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Selleg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peteashdown.org/journal/?p=229#comment-41582</guid>
		<description>I agree, email has become a means of personal communication equivalent to that which the authors of the U.S. Constitution referred to as &quot;letters&quot; and sought to protect from unreasonable search and seizure. Allowing any single governmental office the freedom to demand information about anyone&#039;s personal communications without judicial review of specific reasonable cause subverts the intent of the 4th amendment. 

Thank you for taking an ethical stand against an unreasonable power grab by the Utah legislature. This is a patriotic action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, email has become a means of personal communication equivalent to that which the authors of the U.S. Constitution referred to as &#8220;letters&#8221; and sought to protect from unreasonable search and seizure. Allowing any single governmental office the freedom to demand information about anyone&#8217;s personal communications without judicial review of specific reasonable cause subverts the intent of the 4th amendment. </p>
<p>Thank you for taking an ethical stand against an unreasonable power grab by the Utah legislature. This is a patriotic action.</p>
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